Blind Date: Jonah Hodari + Dumebi Malaika Menakaya
On October 9, 2024, we set up photographers Jonah Hodari and Dumebi Malaika Menakaya on a “blind date.” They discussed:
photography, the DMV, friendship, nature, wine, the big city, God, mothers, sickness, health, blackness, queerness, portraiture, light,
photography, the DMV, friendship, nature, wine, the big city, God, mothers, sickness, health, blackness, queerness, portraiture, light,
Mister: Jonah, meet Dumebi. Dumebi, meet Jonah! I wish you guys had a glass of wine or something, but it’s 1 p.m...take on this series as if you were a little bit tipsy. Have fun!
Dumebi: Oh my god, that was awesome. It felt like my parents were dropping me off somewhere.
Jonah: First day of school!
D: Right, like okay! Um, how are you?
J: I’m good, how are you?
D: I’m good.
J: Once again, I’m Jonah
D: I’m Dumebi
J: Nice to meet you. So, who are you Dumebi?
D: Oh my gosh, that’s such a… who am I?
J: Yes.
D: I guess I’ll give you a classic intro. I’m Dumebi… I’m Nigerian American, I’m originally from Maryland, Howard County if that means anything to-
J: Virginia! DMV!
D: Yes! It’s like they knew. I’m a photographer, I don’t know if you even know that much. Are you also a photographer?
J: Yes!
D: I’m kind of glad because I was like, I do love art in all of its forms, but I don’t know my capacity to speak about mediums that aren’t [photography].
J: Thank you! It’s really difficult and I feel incompetent.
D: My connection to Mister is I have a friend Bex who I was friends with in college, who I’m still friends with now
J: Yes! I know Bex
D: How do you know Bex?
J: Through Tima.
D: Okay, cute. As you probably know, Bex is doing this insane, awesome, beautiful article that I'm so excited about, and she asked me to shoot it for her. It couldn't have come at a better time, because Bex is one of those people that I don't talk to every day. We've kind of tangentially been a part of each other's lives for a while, and she’s always been someone I feel really comfortable with … there’s just something there that feels like, I don’t need to do what seems classic to pursue or build a friendship
J: It’s just already there, it’s in nature. It’s meant to be!
D: In a really freaky way, so when she asked me to do this I was like, Oh my God, of course … It was really nicely aligned, all of it, so I’m glad I got to shoot it for her. And I guess those pictures are what you’re gonna be looking at…Who are you Jonah?
J: Let’s see. I’m Jonah Hodari. I'm from Richmond, Virginia, DMV. I'm also a photographer and a filmmaker, primarily a writer. And I grew up as a dancer, though I love performing. I did ballet and jazz and theater from 8 to 18, so that really informs my life, the way I do my work. As a photographer, I mainly do portraiture and some documentary things. I'm really into the sensitivity of time, like the circumstances of a person right now, and especially being in college, I feel like every three months I’m a different human being … So I'm like, at this exact moment, what amount of knowledge and wisdom and naivety do you have, and how can I capture that? So that really informs me as an artist.
As a person, I just turned 21, so we’re up!
D: We should have a glass of wine!
J: We should have a glass of wine. Next time.
Also, I’m a Black American, so that really informs my perspective on documentation and sensitivity of time in person, because I can only track my ancestry to a certain point. I only have so much knowledge about the people who made me and the people who have informed my life circumstances. And so a lot of my work, at least at this point, is of my family. I feel like it's necessary, because you never know what's to come. I feel like we're at a very particular time, in at least American history. I feel like we're at a turning point, that we're not going to go back to the way things have been. And so I feel a sensitivity to capture right now, because it seems so prescient … but that's a whole different train of thought. Where are you?
D: I’m in New York!
J: Whaaat! What you doing there?
D: I live in Brooklyn now. I graduated in 2023 nice and stayed in Massachusetts for the summer, and then was like, sorry guys, sorry guys, that’s actually all I had in me, and I will be moving to New York right now. And I did.
J: That’s awesome. I’ve been contemplating a New York move myself. I’m in Boston. I’m in a classroom right now.
D: Where do you go to school?
J: Emerson College.
D: Oh my gosh, I was just at a bar called “The Emerson” yesterday.
J: Woah! I bet it’s better than the school.
D: I’m sure they’re both great in their own ways!
… I guess maybe it should be time?
J: I think it might be time.
D: You were itching, bitch!
J: I wasn’t itching! I’m nervous!
D: I’m actually super terrified. All right, let’s do it.
J: 1, 2, 3…[Jonah and Dumebi open their portfolios] oh my goodness, 40 pages!
D: Let’s get into it!
J: These are incredible. Do you like black and white?
D: I’m a black-and-white fan. Oh, these are beautiful! I see you like black and white too. These are beautiful.
J: Thank you so much, yours as well. I love the inclusion of nature.
D: I can see why they wanted us to look at these … Oh, these polaroids are nasty bitch. Double exposure? How did you even do this?
A lot of my photos are portraits, but they’re very faceless. Just a lot of ways of obscuring the face in a bunch of different modes, so it is very obvious to me that I’m going to be drawn to this one, where your face is blown out and I can’t see your face.
J: Thank you so much. Do you feel like there's a particular reason that you're drawn towards depictions of self that aren't rooted within the face?
D: I think that when I first started taking pictures, something that I didn't realize I was doing, was hiding myself in parts of photos. Photos are the way that I can say things about myself that I would never say out loud, right? And so when I'm taking pictures of other people, and having it be a person that you can't recognize by their facial features, it allows them to act as a stand-in for me. And so it's kind of like a way of taking self portraits with other people when we do this obscuration. That person could be anyone, including me, and they're speaking to things about me. It just allows the subject to be like, a lot more than the person who's actually in the frame.
J: Yeah, finding the relatability in it. I really like the idea of the photograph being a give and take, like a conversation between the two of you, where it's like the commonality between the individual instead of just the individual self. I really like that.
D: And it's funny, because in your work of other people it is very clear it is much so about the actual people in the photo.
J: Yeah, it’s mainly family or family friends.
D: I feel like that really speaks to what you were talking about, where it's like this need to capture people as they are in this moment, in this circumstance, in a way that creates an archive for now that we will remember in the future, because nothing will ever be like this ever again. And like you are really doing the thing that you said. And it's beautiful, and this light is so soft – are these on film?
J: Yeah, they’re all on film.
D: That light is so soft and pretty. This first photo, of the guy in the white beard. Who is this?
Photo by Jonah Hodari
J: This is my godfather. He's my dad's best friend, and he recently got sick. This was his first haircut after being out of the hospital. I wanted to capture him post this deeply, deeply tumultuous medical experience, but sort of in his most handsome… he gets to be a little bit vain, feel beautiful. I'm really glad I got to capture him on this day, and it was totally by chance. I went there to photograph another one of my dad's friends, and he was just at the house, and I was like, please, let me take pictures of you right now. And he was just so happy about it, and he loves the photos.
D: That’s awesome. And I feel like it’s a very important perspective, because a lot of times when we think about documentary style photography, it's like they will take a picture of the sickness and the suffering, and those moments. I think your perspective of let's take a picture after all of this has happened, and he's overcome all of this, and he looks his best …. It tells the same story that taking the picture in the hospital would have, but in a glorifying light, right? I feel like it's a perspective that is very needed, because I feel like Black people deserve to be happy and shown as such, and deserve to be beautiful and shown as such.
Photo by Dumebi Malaika Menakaya
J: We do deserve that. I’m looking at these photos of Bex – stunning – was there a certain motivation behind having it be set in nature? You have a really great way of incorporating the human form into natural shapes and curves, like the one with the tree, just like the angles of it all. Also we’re brown, so we blend in. Do you feel like there was a purpose behind the nature? Do you feel a relationship with nature as an artist?
D: Me and Bex had a planning call about this, she was talking about kind of the way that she felt her writing was taking form. She was framing it as this, before and after and a coming into herself, a reconnecting with the world kind of thing. I was like, to me, it sounds like a way we could show this shift is indoor, outdoor. This first cycle that you’re talking about, the darker part of yourself, this darker experience you were going to, have that in black and white and in a domestic space. And then have this breakthrough moment of you out in the world, in color, in nature. We were very much aligned. We were like, is that too on the nose? To do the thing? But it seemed right.
J: It works! It works really, really well. You were talking about the conversations prior to the photographs being taken, is that a normal part of your practice as a photographer?
D: No, not at all. Not even a little bit. When I was in college, I just hit people up and was like, “Hey! Want to go take some pictures?” And then we would just go out and do it. I wasn’t a planner, I didn’t have a shot list, the things just happened off the top of my head. So even with the shoot with Bex, we talked about feelings and how we wanted it to feel and what we wanted it to convey, but I feel like I was just going off of – is vibes a stupid word? But yeah.
J: No, it works though! Everything is vibrations
D: I don’t know, I feel like the process is supposed to take you where you need to go. I respect people who create the sets, write these mockups, and that is beautiful. But I feel like I’m the type of person who would make all this stuff, and then get there and do something completely different. I'll be like, Oh my God, but I know we said we're gonna do this, but have you seen the light in the bathroom right now?
Photo by Dumebi Malaika Menakaya
J: Like, the way things are stacked over in the corner is just so eerie and perfect. We need to go over there.
D: Exactly. You feel like someone who makes in the moment. Am I reading that right?
J: You’re right. I feel like when I plan, I overthink, and then I can lose the sincerity of the moment, or the sincerity of the concept, and I get so caught up in perception and production, and the purpose is just lost. So I feel like my best work comes out of spontaneity, especially because it's people that I know, family, that I'm just spending time with. It’s like, Oh, wait, this is a very beautiful moment. I can see you in a very clear way right now. Can I take a picture of you? A lot of my photos are of my siblings, so we'll just be outside in the park or something. Or sometimes, because I've been taking pictures for a few years now, they'll say, can you take a picture of me doing this? And we’ll just find the moment.
Also when it comes to my self portraiture, that definitely comes in spontaneous moments. I never plan those. Sometimes I’ll sneak into random studios, or rooms, and set up a camera and go click, click, click, and head right out. I feel like that’s where your most honest work comes from.
D: I totally agree with you! And it’s something I’ve been told I need to fix! I think that it works for you really well. And part of the reason that it works for you really well is that your subject matter is super well defined, your work feels incredibly cohesive. The problem with me is my making where it’s just me carrying my camera places, and I’m taking pictures of whoever, whatever, whenever I feel it, and the goal is only to capture people the way I see them. Sometimes that can make my work super not cohesive. So I feel like people’s advice has been, plan the shoot Dumebi. Plan a shoot. Go restage things. And I’m like, I can’t! I have to, but I can’t.
J: I think the idea of cohesive can vary because it’s cohesive because it’s your work. So that, in itself, makes it sound like a monographic collection. But I feel like with art, there's no accuracy, like there is no correct way of navigating your process.There is no correct way of being yourself. You have to explore that on your own time, and no one else can say, well, this just isn't really how your work should be. Did you get a guidebook, because I didn’t get a guidebook.
D: I must have missed when they were giving those out.
J: Do you feel like, besides cohesion, you have any goals for your work as a photographer? Or in any other medium.
D: In other mediums, I’ve found that I find a lot of joy and comfort in supporting people in their work. So while I’m not going to make the film, I have a friend who’s making a film and I’m going to be their AD on it and I’m really excited for that, that’s not something I’ve ever done. So that’s something I want to keep doing, supporting others. Let’s push the people who are doing the thing while I figure myself out. Two, as I mentioned earlier, starting out with photography became a place to hide from myself. I think that it could be very fruitful to approach it with a lot more conscious honesty. I think that the images themselves have always been honest, you can always see the things that even I'm not telling you, but it was kind of my subconscious revealing itself. I'm wondering what it looks like if I think through these things intentionally and then try to capture them in a way…It’s your turn, spill your guts.
Photo by Dumebi Malaika Menakaya
J: Moving forward artistically, I want to work on more long term projects. I feel like exploring the evolution of people's relationship with themselves and their relationship with the world around them is just so fascinating. I already work with video, but I feel like incorporating video work with my photographic work more purposefully would be really interesting. I know in the past two years, I've become a completely different person watching friends evolve in their own experiences. I was talking to a friend saying that the past week has ultimately changed the way that they view the world for the rest of their life. I feel like documenting those incremental changes can help us when it comes to how we view life, because so much of it is comparing your experience to other people and not being on the right timeline. We base so much of our experience, especially as artists, sometimes around timelines and expectation, that we limit ourselves from truly experiencing what life is at its core. That there is no expectation, it is just experience. So I feel like trying to incorporate these more like life lessons into my work is my ultimate goal.
D: I’m impressed with the clarity of your voice, and the way that really comes through in your work. I don’t know, I’m just so gagged by people who can make the thing they say they’re gonna make. Your thought process is so apparent in your work, and that’s amazing.
J: Thank you. One, I can’t wait to read this article in tandem with your work, because this is already making me feel so much. You are a very personable person, a person who’s very in touch with the present and the emotional experience, and it’s all throughout your work. There’s a sensitivity and a delicateness that I really appreciate, and I want to see more outside of just this one series. I want to see more of your pieces, even if they aren’t “cohesive.”
D: I’ll follow you on Instagram in a second.
J: Follow for follow. Thank you, Mister, for bringing us together. And when I come to New York, we need to hang out. And if you’re ever back in Massachusetts – power to you – let me know.
D: It was so nice to meet you, my dear. And yes, thank you Mister!